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Everything you always wanted to know about France |
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Number 91 - July 16 2004
France Voila, the newsletter and weblog from Rentals France and the French Property Digest. You will only receive it if we have been given your email from one of our websites and asked for more information. If you do not wish to get this regular magazine, please unsubscribe by using this link. Unsubscribe In this issue... 1. When is a Gite not a Gite 2. Pool Fencing rules - again - but it is important 3. Should We Move to France? 4. Buying a Return, or a Lifestyle? 5. Travel for Senior Citizens 6. Allowable expenses on Rented Property in France 7. Good Service from a Supplier 8. Contracts and Leases ======= 1. When is a Gite not a Gite Tony I have just read your comment on the website, that, "you can only have up to 15 people in a gite development, over that and it is a hotel with many requirements and licenses" I am concerned that after a lot of effort in locating a large gite development, that I did not know about this. Specialist gite property agents did not raise this issue and when I recently approached them, claimed no knowledge about this legislation. Is this new legislation ? - from my meetings with vendors of large gite establishments, none referred to this. Could you possibly point me in the right direction to obtain more information on this matter. Many thanks, Peter === Hello Peter As with the pool laws and many things in France, you aint got a problem until you have a problem. No one selling you property will volunteer information, you have to know the correct question to ask and this implies you may already know the answer. Any accommodation catering for more than 15 people comes under completely different juristriction and statutes.This is based on laws, mostly from the 70s and 80s and is certainly not new. There is so much legislation and definitions that I recommend you search through the government sites, starting at... http://www.admifrance.gouv.fr/etranger/english.html AdmiFrance all the answers are buried in the gouv.fr sites Until this year, villa rentals, gites and most vacation homes were mostly ignored by the tax and licensing authorities, but trade bodies like the FNAIM and commercial pressure , plus the huge taxes to be collected in this sector making it much more tightly observed and controlled. Hope this helps Tony ======= 2. Pool Fencing rules - again - but it is important For two years Ihave been writing aboutthe pool safety laws in France. It is a criminal offence to rent a property in France with a pool which does not have the approved safety requirements. Unfortunately the Gallic indifference to authority and a certain elemnt of ex-pat arrogance makes it very difficult to know what to do. Her is an exchange of mail I have had this week. === Hi, I wonder if you can help me (and hundreds of other pool owners) please? Our pool has some semi rigid fencing about 1.3m high around the perimeter. We are going to France in 1 week and I'm planning to extend the patio area with some decking, around the perimeter. My plan is to put a ballustrade style fence about 1.2m (whatever it needs to be)that would be rigid. I'll make the rest what ever is required. Do you think this will be acceptable? I don't want to erect this only to find that when we come to do the rest it isn't acceptable. Our local builders merchant (who's brother is the Mayor) said we only need an alarm?? I'm not convinced but would prefer fencing especially around the decked areas as the outer ground level will then be over 1.6m below and I don't want anyone falling off. Sorry to bug you with this one, if the requirements were 1.3m all around with an outward openning gate etc it would make everyones life easier I'm sure. Ironically, we have a lake within 30 meters of the pool about 1m deep with a muddy base that is a far greater risk but we are told, "don't worry it's not included" I hope you can help me soon. Kind Regards Steve === Hello Steve We have written many times about the pool fencing saga in France in our newsletters, you can also see some information at.. http://francevoila.com/features/pools.html Pool Information If you buy the AFNOR standards you will see that the specifications for barriers and alarms are very detailed, however, the law is still vague to the point of stupidity as all it says is that an "approved security device" or an "approved barrier" must be installed. To be sure you have a barrier or alarm which is correct you must read and apply these standards. The bottom line depends on your company, will they pay out in the event of an accident - get them to confirm they will in writing, but they are likely to say this is conditional on an "approved" system. If your agent will inspect your pool and confirm in writing it is acceptable then this should be sufficient, but we have not found anyone who has had this done yet. The real decision must be based on your own values, to make a good, secure and compliant barrier is not difficult and need not be expensive, but you do need to have the AFNOR guides. We cannot send these to you as there is strict copyright protection but I am very happy to lend you our copy to read at... http://francevoila.com/features/pools306.pdf Pools.pdf This law has been badly thought and badly applied. Your point about lakes also applies to ponds and rivers. Hope this helps Tony === Hi Tony, Many thanks for your reply. I don't understand enough French to read the copy you could lend me, but thanks anyway. We have cover for the buildings & contents, I understand it covers public liability although there is no mention of Swimming Pools. We used C/A Britline as it's the same as our Banking facility. I guess it's the same as buying goods, they have to be CE marked nowadays. I was going to use a Wooden Balustrade style around part of the pool where we plan to install the decking, this would be rigid & have a height of around 1.1m, around the other parts I was planning to use the "Green Wire" fencing again to the same height, it would be highly unlikely anyone could climb over especially at age 5 or under. The gate would be outward opening & have 2 means of fixing. I'm not asking for a judgement but do you think from your interpretation of the publication we would be covered? A neighbour who has a walled setting for their pool although no gate actually advertises that it is in compliance with French law but when we were last in France she said she had no idea what the rules were. I'll not keep coming back, I'm sure you have enough to do but would be grateful of your comments. The more we think of life in France the more I hate being in England in a country that appears to be past saving. Kind Regards Steve === Hi Unfortunately you really do need to read carefully all the specifications, we want to translate them but the copyright prevents us doing this. From your description it does not sound as if the fencing you specify will be approved. Some of the AFNOR specification stipulates that the wall must not be able to be climbed, no footholds, large mesh etc, nor can the fence offer any ways a child could get stuck, trap a foot etc, that it will withstand an impact (of about a strong 5 year old running at it), that there are no sharp places anywhere, on the top etc. Your neighbour is wrong, there must be an outward opening gate with a "double" lock that a child cannot open. This year I have been spending a lot of time in England for the first time in 15 years. This is to spend as much time as possible with my Mother. There are many changes I have found and I believe it is a great country and has a lot to offer. France has many differences. On balance we are very happy to live in France and we are grateful for the ability to do so. Tony ======= 3. Should We Move to France? After replying to the pool question from Steve, I got another very pertinent letter from him about moving to France === Hi, me again. I wonder if I'm chasing something that isn't possible. We have a house near to Aubeterre. We are 4 in total children of 15 and 13. We would like to sell up and come to live in France. I'm self employed (selling printing machinery) & so would have to live from any income we could raise through letting a house we would buy locally in France. My concern is our children, we don't speak French (other than survival)and don't have the ability to send them to private English speaking schools. What chance have we got?? Maybe we should wait 4 or 5 years & move then. I'd be pleased to hear if anyone else has any similar experience as most of the time families move out with children. Kind Regards Steve === Hello Again Steve Anything is possible, but your children could suffer badly if moved into the French educational system at 13 ad 15. In fact unless they are already fluent in French the local school system may decline to accept them as the extra load on the teachers at a critical time would affect the other children. In addition, the French curriculum from 13 is fixed and the workload is very high for all students. Your children would both in effect be at the standard of 11 year olds in France and have no viable chance of getting to a"bac". Bilingual private schools in France are not expensive compared to the UK. The other major problem is making a living in France, getting a job, even as a self employed person - is very difficult - almost zero. I would not advise anyone to rely solely on vacation rental income, the return if cleverly researched would be around 5% so you would need a substantial portfolio to be able to live in France. There is a big over supply of holiday rental accommodation in France, bookings this years are badly down. France is no longer the number one destination due to the huge growth in alternative destinations. If you are operating a Gite yourself then this needs to be in the areas of high demand to be commercially viable. Hope these notes give some idea of the problems, we moved 15 years ago when our children were 3 years and 18 months, we have seen property prices increase by ten times in some areas and in the last five years have found that vacation rental prices have not risen and bookings are down by an average of 50%. But, as I said, anything is possible. Tony ======= 4. Buying a Return, or a Lifestyle? Hello I'm thinking of buying a country house in Pyrenees Atlantiques (64), about midway between Pau and Biarritz, with views of the mountains. Is this likely to be a good deal? Do you know what the rise in prices is predicted to be there? Would it be good holiday rental country? Looking forward to hearing from you Best regards Jonathan Walter === Hello Jonathan That is a huge region and there may be individual opportunities. No one can predict changes in property prices, my guess is that regions which have proven popular will continue to rise a little for a few years yet, but other regions may be already overpriced. There is considerable over supply in the rental market this year, some areas show bookings for individual properties down from 40% to 80%. The holiday season is short in that area as winters are cold, it is isolated and largely unknown - as a lifestyle it is your personal choice, for a return I would only consider established areas like Paris, the Riviera, Cote d'Azur or some parts of Languedoc. Hope this helps Tony === 5. Travel Cover for Senior Citizens Hello Tony Can you help? Our property will be completed in September and we plan to spend 2/3 months each trip to France. However, we have discovered companies do not want to insure people over 70 (my husband) on annual multi trips policies and also have restrictions on the period of each trip. This must be a problem other property owners experience, do you have any information on where to obtain the best travel cover deal? Thanks for your informative newsletter Margaret === Hello Margaret Travel cover, I understand, is not regulated and, from the reports I read, the charges are excessive. I do not bother with it personally - you will have some reciprocal cover in the EEC. I hear good things about the CSMA - Civil Service Motoring Association - if you qualify this may help - their website is at... http://www.csma.uk.com/ CSMA Can any other readers help or comment please - write to me at tony@pezenas.com tony@pezenas.com ====== 6. Allowable expenses on Rented Property in France Question? A friend recently passed on your website address. In the case of non-residents of France who receive rental income in France on a property (not a lease back)is income tax calculated by the French Revenue on the basis of rent received, less expenditure incurred (eg, direct expenses, local taxes (TF) depreciation on furnishings, interest, etc)or on a notional system based on the value of the property that is rented ? Thank you, Brendan === Hello Brendan Ask 10 experts in France and you will get 12 different answers - but don't take the one you like best. The authorities are tightening up fiercely and retrospective taxation and penalties have almost no limits. Unless you have your property registered in a company - an SCI - even if you are resident you will not be allowed expenses off the rental income apart from the local tax or registered agents management fees. Not maintenance, not depreciation absolutely nothing else. If you are resident then loan interest may be allowable depending on your tax status and the way you make returns. Tony ======= 7. Good Service from a Supplier I love to write about good service. This week I wanted to buy a Flash drive memory for my laptop. A quick search got me to... http://www.flashbay.com FlashBay Very good prices so I ordered and paid for a Jump Drive Traveler 512 meg memory thingy. Next day I got a Jump Drive Sport 512 meg memory, not the one I wanted as this did not have some of the functions I needed. I phoned, explaining they had sent the wrong item and that I was leaving the UK in two days, immediately they offered to mail the correct item, apologised for their mistake and were positive and helpful. As there was not enough time for me to be sure to receive it, they then offered to meet me anywhere in London to give me the correct item. Guess where I will be buying my computer accessories in future! ======= 8. Contracts and Leases Tony We live in Canada, I've been reading your articles concerning leaseback properties and its been a helpful part of my fact finding mission while we endeavor to purchase a leaseback in the South of France. We are about one month away from closing the purchase, at which time construction in due to commence, we expect building time to be about one year. After assembling all the facts our decision to move forward was based on two considerations, return (in this case 5.5% net after expenses) I could not replicate this return for an apartment in Vancouver and secondly as a small hedge on the Euro vs. Canadian Dollar. We are only 43 & 47 years old respectively and have no intention of occupying during or after the 9-year lease period, our view is that after 20 years we'll possibly enjoy some property appreciation, and possibly use the unit during winter months. It would appear that to view this any other way would be unrealistic, it meets our goals with respect to return and anything else is a bonus. I realize we're a bit far gone in the transaction to raise further points but would you consider this approach to leaseback purchases as realistic? Thank-you Fred === Fred Yes, your goals seem clear and realistic. My only slight concern is the renewal of a management contract after the initial 9 year lease. No matter what "release" clause may be put in the initial contract, this may not be enforceable under French law. This applies to all leaseback deals, but as you are looking at this only finacially this is the correct way to view Leasebacks. Bonne Chance Tony ======= Our services are on our websites... RentalsFrance.com FrenchPropertyDigest.com We try to talk about important issues for renters and owners of property in France, whether you come for a day - or much longer. The aim is not to "paint over the cracks", but to improve the quality of the French experience for everyone. There are over 1,000 articles in the FranceVoila archives at... FranceVoila Archives ...and you can see the latest news on our weblog at The France Weblog A really cool way to see our news is with our RSS feed - do write and tell me if you use this. RSS for Fblog |